Week 4 [Feb 4- Feb 8]:
TOPIC: Discussion on Teachers' Language Proficiency
Guest Speaker: Ahmar Mahboob
In this session, we will consider what it means to be ‘proficient’ in a language. We will also explore the complex relationship between language proficiency and language teaching. To start off, l invite you to consider the following questions:
- What is language proficiency?
- Do you think that language proficiency impacts pedagogy and ? If yes, in what ways?
- Please watch and analyze the following video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=FrSkf0LZWEc .
For the live discussion:
Date: February 6, 2009
Length: 1 hour
Time: 6 am GMT (See time conversions here, http://tinyurl.com/ahmar-live)
Place: Learning Times, http://tinyurl.com/y3eh
Powerpoint
- Below is Ahmar Mahboob's slide presentation:
Plugin error: That plugin is not available.
Live Session Screenshots
Plugin error: That plugin is not available.
To listen/watch the recording, please click here.
Here is the text chat:
Moderator (Session Leader) to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: that's ok- you're here!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): Hey! Ahmar!!!!
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Moderator (Session Leader): HI Ana!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): Hey all!
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Moderator (Session Leader): you can release the mic Ahmar
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Hi, Ana.
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): Hi Terry! Just came back from school... I'ts not raining...
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): It's weird to see Ahmar.. drinking?!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to Session Leader, Session Leader 1, Session Leader 2: Ahmr, I'm looking at doing a study on the NNEST experience - hiring criteria in Canada...
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: an ability to use language in various situations
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Moderator (Session Leader 1) to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: that sounds great!
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Moderator (Session Leader 1) to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: i'll be happy to chat with you about it later
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helena53 [Elena]: thoroughly skilled, well practised
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: sorry, no mike today, in a crowd...
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): Use of language with accuracy, intelligebility, efficienty communicating/expressing ideas
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: I like your definition, Ana
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: don't we then need to define accuracy? and intelligibility?
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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helena53 [Elena]: agree
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: more of a spectrum....
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helena53 [Elena]: sorry, i can't change this awful "me" into "Elena"
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Moderator (Session Leader): Elena, we can see your name
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: the fact that it was defined by the US department of Education
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helena53 [Elena]: oh...good
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: so that it means their "degree of control" and their standards have as a subtext.... I am assuming -- American GE
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: I was serious!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Moderator (Session Leader): control- i like maneuverability better
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: also the domains... I am assuming they mean domains of NS?
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): does social circumstances necessarily mean "culture norms"? I guess yes, right?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: but what about intercultural ability?
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Moderator (Session Leader): yes, ana, but I think more on pubic situations
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Moderator (Session Leader): multitask Ahmar
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: interest!!!!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): how do I delete it? sorry....
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Did they ask the key questions before they chose the test?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: her goals, her needs, the context of the class?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): probably not
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): she was given a placement test
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): on arriva
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): so that she could be placed in a class
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to Enric [Enric]: Btw - hello, Enric!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: What was the original purpose of the test?
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helena53 [Elena]: well, this is maybe a standard procedure...?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: which test?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): let's say a home-grown placement test
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Enric [Enric] to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: hi, i'm kind of sleepy but here..
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: was there another way to evaluate her?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: what elements did the test contain?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: In my school I think the counselors use an oral test, as well.
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: probably the wrong kinds of things tested for the contexgt
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: of teaching
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helena53 [Elena]: "perform" ? does it mean "orally" ?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Maybe her reading "proficiency" is better than her oral , as Aiden just said.
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Enric [Enric]: tests are measuring proficiency ina very specific way, not including actual communicative ability
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helena53 [Elena]: there are students who can read and understand well, but cannot speak well..
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Moderator (Session Leader): agree
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: depends on the purpose of the class
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Moderator (Session Leader): but they perform well in written exams
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes, they perfomr wel in toefl test
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: and disparity in skills
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helena53 [Elena]: this happened with me when i first visited England
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: he is missing intercultural ability
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): england!
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): do they still speak english there
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes, but isn't it strange that he can't understand the newspaper?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: happens to NS all the time who have no experience with different varieties of English
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helena53 [Elena]: being a teacher of english and not able to understand the people in the streets of London...!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: EIL, ELF,
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Moderator (Session Leader): yes, but Elena's point is good
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helena53 [Elena]: is it a matter of accent only ?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: not just
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: people who want to communicate with each other -- accommodate
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helena53 [Elena]: true
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Enric [Enric]: but people with 'social power' have a harder time accommodating to 'lower status' people...
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: depends on their end motivation...
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helena53 [Elena]: culture differences
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: So is a "translinguisic speaker" one who would be able to adjust to Nigerian English quickly?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: depends on their background, terry
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: I see.
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: a translinguistic teacher would have experience moving from their L1 to English -- not always to other languages though.
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: PG student, again?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Oh, I see. Thanks, Karen.
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): post-graduate
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Enric [Enric]: Same as with the Sidney guy in Nigeria but with altered social relationships
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: oh.
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): i agree
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helena53 [Elena]: agree
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helena53 [Elena]: yes, content
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: tuning the ear to a different accent -- getting used to a different way of presenting/teaching
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Moderator (Session Leader): agree with Enric
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Moderator (Session Leader): Vikas has to adapt
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: because the subject matter is similar -- he will soon adapt, is that right Enric?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: but the lecturers will not
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Moderator (Session Leader): exactly
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Enric [Enric]: exactly!
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Moderator (Session Leader): great minds think alike
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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helena53 [Elena]: due to some kind of stress, i think
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: maybe shows that the TOEFL isn't that useful...?
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Moderator (Session Leader): interview- stress, anxiety
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: and that high English proficiency is not necessary when teaching in an EFL context -- because the L1 is a useful medium for teaching
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: just a question
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Moderator (Session Leader): he perhaps did not understand the question but failed to express his feelings?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: in his environment -- he does not have a need for experience in English across wide domains... only that which is focused on in his lessons
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Moderator (Session Leader): ah- Karen- that's what Seidlhofer suggests
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: good ol Barbara
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Moderator (Session Leader): it's the ELF knowledge that matters for these teachers
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Medgyes would have a fit
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): would it be ELF or the knowledge of local english?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: the context of both the culture and the L1 and the local variety of English
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Good questin
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Moderator (Session Leader): local Pakistani
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Moderator (Session Leader): ok
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helena53 [Elena]: when interviewed some people feel embarrassed
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): i take it that his professional training was in English, right?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: when interviewed by someone who shares his own L1 -- he may tend to prefer that L1 anyway
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Moderator (Session Leader): yes, Karen but if they're assessing his knowledge of L2, then using L1 won't serve this purpose, right?
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Moderator (Session Leader): domain
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Moderator (Session Leader): context
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: unless it was not clear that the interview was being used to evaluate his English -- maybe it was to evaluate his teaching
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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helena53 [Elena]: yes, if you are familiar with it, you are more confident
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Moderator (Session Leader): right, but outside that domain he didn't perform well
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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helena53 [Elena]: i think it's also due to the psychology of the human nature
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Enric [Enric]: sorry i gotta go. it was nice being here. thanks for the excellent session, ahmar.
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): bye, enric!
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Moderator (Session Leader): bye Enric
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to : bye enric!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: lol
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helena53 [Elena]: i've always lacked enough confidence about discourse because as a nnest i've always been afraid of making grammar mistakes
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): me too
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helena53 [Elena]: ...when i speak...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: scaffolding?
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Moderator (Session Leader): front feeding?
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: sounds like dynamic assessment
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: At the discourse level, I guess I' shy because I won't be able to use the right vocabulary.. the rigth jargon for the situation
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Moderator (Session Leader): scaffolding
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: zone of proximal development
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): SLATE Project
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): scaffolding literacy in academic and tertiary environments
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Moderator (Session Leader): students perform well in delivering contents due to solid scaffolding - but they still do make grammatical mistakes
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Moderator (Session Leader): except of course, scaffolding made focused on grammatical points thay they need to use
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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Moderator (Session Leader): we did
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yep
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helena53 [Elena]: twice
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Moderator (Session Leader): others watched it several times
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): finally! I wanted to know Ahmar's opinion...
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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helena53 [Elena]: i just couldn't believe what i saw
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: i hope none of my students ever do that to me...
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): how did you find this video, Ahmar?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1) to Session Leader, Session Leader 1, Session Leader 2: how much time do i have?
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helena53 [Elena]: felt pity for her
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: lol!
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): I am fine with time. I am eating dinner..
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helena53 [Elena]: the students were having fun with her
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: wow... dangerous
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): yup
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helena53 [Elena]: was it a deliberately made video?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): no
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helena53 [Elena]: ok
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): this was an authentic recording
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helena53 [Elena]: so it was a hidden camera ?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): there are a few other very distrubing ones posted by the same guy
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): yes, the student had a concealed camera in his bag
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helena53 [Elena]: ok
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: As to her competency, it's one thing to say you don't know... another thing to make stuff up
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Moderator (Session Leader): exactly
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Moderator (Session Leader): she should have walked around-
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helena53 [Elena]: is this a TYPICAL situation in Pakistan
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Moderator (Session Leader): they knew she was going to mess it up
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helena53 [Elena]: ?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Yes, I think so
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helena53 [Elena]: typical example?
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): i couldn't understand her...
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helena53 [Elena]: ok
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helena53 [Elena]: me too
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Moderator (Session Leader): i think we've got teachers like that in Taiwan
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: I couldn't understand her sometimes
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): sound/words/a bit of everything. also, there was not much body language
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Moderator (Session Leader): i think it's both proficiency and knowl;edge of the subject
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Moderator (Session Leader): exactly
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: that was weird
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helena53 [Elena]: she is not happy with her job
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: #4 - exactly
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helena53 [Elena]: a good teacher should possess the quality of being a good socialiser
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Elena -- totally!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: personality is key
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: relationship is key
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helena53 [Elena]: yes, very important!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Ahmar, another colleague and I have as a goal to create mini-ethnographers in our EAL classes
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: more important in our teacher training courses
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helena53 [Elena]: i love working with people an i enjoy teaching
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helena53 [Elena]: it makes me happy indeed
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Moderator (Session Leader): TRC
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: lol
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): you do see a bias toward SFL at the bottom there
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yeah Halliday!
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helena53 [Elena]: functional = situational ?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1):
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helena53 [Elena]: ok
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Functional grammar = top down -- meaning first
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: from the big picture meaning to how that is realized in the actual words (and even sounds) we choose....
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helena53 [Elena]: connected with real life
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Functional Grammar I think goes back to Ahmar's slide on "grammatical competenmce". Right?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Aiden and Ana had some good suggestions re: World Englishes in the class...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Elena -- right!
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: intercultural and cross cultural...
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: that was good!
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helena53 [Elena]: i've been experinecing this - i taught in Bulgaria, now i've been teaching in Germany
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helena53 [Elena]: experiencing...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Freire.... pedagogy of empowerment
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: oooohhhhh..... good stuff
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Moderator (Session Leader): strategies in improving language proficiency?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): and teacher education
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): what do you mean by culture chats - can you please elaborate?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: EVOs like this one in which we exhange
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helena53 [Elena]: 1. to live and work in a multicultural environment; optimism; enjoying teaching.
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): yup, this is really good
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): ok
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: in which we can exchange ideas with scholars in a "friendly" forum
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): i do like the multimodality of this format
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helena53 [Elena]: ...and curious to know more about different cultures
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): notice how we are creating meaning by using multiple modalities at the same time and how these modalities 'couple' to create meaning...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: oooohh... good one, Ahmar
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Moderator (Session Leader 1):
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helena53 [Elena]: free sessions...that would be great !
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Good idea. I'm interested
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): me too
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helena53 [Elena]: i've been studying ALL MY LIFE ...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: I would LOVE to join!!!!!!
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helena53 [Elena]: education is expensive
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Moderator (Session Leader): great
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Moderator (Session Leader): you're all in!
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Great idea!
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Moderator (Session Leader): my housecleaner is here
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Moderator (Session Leader):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]:
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Moderator (Session Leader): she's asking me to leave
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helena53 [Elena]: I learnt a lot of new thing I was unfamiliar wth - i mean special terms
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): release mic, please
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helena53 [Elena]: things
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): the mic is free, no?
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): terry, get the mic
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Grammatical competence which includes bith intercultutral and crosscultural
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helena53 [Elena]: ...and joining a future on-line course ?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1):
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Yes, that was a gerat idea
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helena53 [Elena]: teachers should always aim at proficiency
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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helena53 [Elena]: knowledge is like an ocean
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helena53 [Elena]: the deeper you go, the less you know
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): perhaps, in a few months, i can ask one of my colleagues to give a more detailed presentation on genre theory and explore ways in which it can help TESOLers
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Moderator (Session Leader): the more you know?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: what about a further look at the level of proficiency required for specific positions?
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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Moderator (Session Leader): right-
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): that's such a hard question
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): ahmar, about language training. I'll be a lifelong learner, but at this stage of my life, concerned with idiosyncracies, accent and fossilization, I think I;d rather have a "personal" trainer... What do you think?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: so that hiring bodies can make better ads
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Moderator (Session Leader): should help you on your thesis, Karen
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Yes, that's imoprtant
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Moderator (Session Leader 1):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: I'm fishing here....
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: lol!!!!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: dialect coaches....
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: YEAH!!!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Eh
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): in the slate project, we call our tutors Language Coaches
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Moderator (Session Leader): right
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: wrong????
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: maybe someone following you around and telling other people how to understand your variety...
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: who is cute
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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Moderator (Session Leader): selinker-
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: by who?/?
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yep send it
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): Bhatt, R. M. (2002). Experts, dialects, and discourse.
International Journal of Applied Linguistics, 12(1), 74-
109.
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helena53 [Elena]: "dynamic" development and improvement
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: just a thought!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): terry?
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Moderator (Session Leader): i've been losing my internet connection
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helena53 [Elena]: i can see you miving
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Moderator (Session Leader): what's the question?
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helena53 [Elena]: moving
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helena53 [Elena]: no interruption
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Moderator (Session Leader): my m-i-l was using the phone, and I lsot my internet connection
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Moderator (Session Leader): sorry, but where are we now?
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: I think I did too
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Moderator (Session Leader): ok
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Moderator (Session Leader): me too
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Moderator (Session Leader 2):
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helena53 [Elena]: me too
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: big question -- once we have educated our students about world Englishes and EIL.... they have a new understanding of what is acceptable... and intelligible.... and yet some of them will still have the goal that they would like to "be able" to be understood in a number of these different varieties... can we teach that?
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helena53 [Elena]: this was my 1st participation in a live session
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yeah... Elena!
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Moderator (Session Leader 1):
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helena53 [Elena]: thank you very much for your lecture
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yeah, Terry!
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): karen, good question... what do you think?
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Moderator (Session Leader): speak louder Terry
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes, louder please
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Moderator (Session Leader): yes
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): no
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): better now
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): can you please repeat your question
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Moderator (Session Leader): Yes, Terry, you have the mic
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): yes
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Moderator (Session Leader): yes
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: Terry commented that he is feeling his language proficiency is low in this context because it is unfamiliar to him
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Moderator (Session Leader): ana
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Yes, I mean that AND the content of this lecture, too,. which is all new but very interssting to me.
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes?
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Moderator (Session Leader): I might lost my internet conenction again
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Moderator (Session Leader): If I do, pls wrap the session for me
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): okay, do you want me to close? can you get the recording?
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Moderator (Session Leader): I hope that I won't lose my connection
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): I don't know how to save the recording
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Moderator (Session Leader): it's being recorded
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Thnak you very much!!!!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): midnight!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: THANK YOU!!!!!!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): mic pelase
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helena53 [Elena]: THANK YOU !
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): THANK YOU!
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Thank you, and see you at TESOL!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: lol!
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Moderator (Session Leader): i just hope that the recording is intact-
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helena53 [Elena]: lol
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: Thank you, Ana, and Aiden, too.
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helena53 [Elena]: thank you
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Terrymichael [undisclosed]: OK, goodnight all!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): thanks!!
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helena53 [Elena]: thank you all
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): thanks... off for my beer now
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Karen.Rauser [Karen]: just press the pause button at the bottom, Ana
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Moderator (Session Leader 1): cheers
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Moderator (Session Leader): helena wait
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): allright
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Moderator (Session Leader): elena wait
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helena53 [Elena]: ok
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Moderator (Session Leader): lol
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to Session Leader 1, Session Leader 2, Session Leader: Ahmar -- I will email you re: research...
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Moderator (Session Leader 1) to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: yup, please do
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to Session Leader 1, Session Leader 2, Session Leader: thanks!!!
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Karen.Rauser [Karen] to Session Leader 1, Session Leader 2, Session Leader: great session, thank you so much!
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Moderator (Session Leader 2): yes
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helena53 [Elena]: one moment
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helena53 [Elena]: yes
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helena53 [Elena]: to click
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helena53 [Elena]: ?
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Moderator (Session Leader 1) to Karen.Rauser [Karen]: i'm going off line now